Grace Ewura-Esi:

You're listening to Traceroute, a podcast about the inner workings of our digital world. I'm Grace Ewura-Esi.

Amy Tobey:

And I'm Amy Tobey.

John Taylor:

And I'm John Taylor. And I have a very important question for the both of you. What did you want to be when you grew up?

Amy Tobey:

I wanted to be a mechanic when I grew up. That was my dream, at least when I was little. And later, I think it shifted to like scientist, I think, and I guess I've kind of landed somewhere in the middle of those two, which isn't too bad.

John Taylor:

So mechanic, you mean auto mechanic, working on cars?

Amy Tobey:

That's what I meant at the time, yeah, yeah.

John Taylor:

All right. Grace, how about you? What did you want to be when you grew up?

Grace Ewura-Esi:

I wanted to be a archeologist. I wanted to specifically dig up fossils, and then later on in life, I wanted to be a neurosurgeon.

John Taylor:

Oh. Wow.

Grace Ewura-Esi:

I've definitely fallen short of the glory of what that was going to be, but yeah.

John Taylor:

My "Oh, wow," was more like what a transition, like that's... I mean, they're both science oriented, right? From-

Grace Ewura-Esi:

Totally.

John Taylor:

... paleontologist, let's say, to neurosurgeon.

Grace Ewura-Esi:

You know what? I wanted to do something in science that I felt like could save people's lives, and so it wasn't that I wasn't interested anymore in digging up really fun fossils. I just thought, if I could help heal people's brains, maybe that would be a contribution to humankind that felt like I was doing something that mattered.

John Taylor:

I tell you, the two of you are just way more aspirational than I was as a kid. I wanted to be a gas station attendant. I thought it would be super cool to run out there and clean a guy's window, and check their oil, you know? And pump the gas from that cool-looking gas pump thing. Yeah, that seemed like the best job ever. And there's a reason this question is important to me. You want to know something that you may never, ever see in your lifetime? A gas station attendant. Okay, they're these little crews of like three or four people, who would run out and service your car when you went to a gas station, and they were an American institution for over half a century. But in the course of a few years, the job was nearly obsolete. And this is the thought that struck me one night when I was making dinner with my 13-year-old daughter, Ella. Do you want to make the rice?

Ella Taylor:

Yeah, I'll make the rice.

John Taylor:

Okay, you make the rice.

Ella Taylor:

Okay, cool.

John Taylor:

All right, uh [inaudible 00:02:32] We really enjoy making dinner together, and Ella is very improvisational in how she cooks, so on this particular night, Ella had asked me to film her cooking Korean barbecue, so she would remember what she had done for the next time. So what's your favorite thing to cook?

Ella Taylor:

Probably-

John Taylor:

Tough question.

Ella Taylor:

Yeah. Probably a Korean steak.

John Taylor:

How do you make a Korean steak?

Ella Taylor:

Well, it's prepared with herbs, and you cook it in sesame oil, and it has like a soy sauce base on it, almost.

John Taylor:

Okay.

Ella Taylor:

So butter and soy sauce is how you baste it, and I don't know, I think it comes out with much more flavor, and it's more fun to cook.

John Taylor:

Don't you need two cups of water in there?

Ella Taylor:

You know there's a little finger trick that you can do with measuring water to rice ratio.

John Taylor:

I did not know that.

Ella Taylor:

Okay, well now you know.

John Taylor:

All right.

Ella Taylor:

Yeah. Yep, rice is starting.

John Taylor:

Excellent.

Ella Taylor:

Mm-hmm.

John Taylor:

So, do you want to be a chef?

Ella Taylor:

Yeah. Totally. 100%.

John Taylor:

So how do you go about doing that?

Ella Taylor:

I guess a lot of practice until you can get into some type of cooking school.

John Taylor:

And then, what happens after that?

Ella Taylor:

I think I would move my location, maybe to like New York or somewhere with a more popular food demand. Like, I think in California, like where I live now, the food isn't as appreciated as it is in New York, so I feel like if I go to New York, it'll have like a better place and better people to cook around.

John Taylor:

Right on.

Ella Taylor:

Yeah.

John Taylor:

And so, there you are in New York. Do you see yourself as like head chef, executive chef? What kind of chef?

Ella Taylor:

I mean, I'd like to be head chef, but I see myself as a chef in a restaurant, but probably not head chef.

John Taylor:

Why not head chef? I mean, is that a goal? Like-

Ella Taylor:

Head chef is totally a goal. I just don't know what the possibility of that happening is.

John Taylor:

Why do you not see that as a possibility?

Ella Taylor:

Because I mean, there's other kids at my age, probably doing much bigger cooking things than I am right now, so they might get the higher place of chef than I would, because they have more practice, and they're already starting to do stuff now.

John Taylor:

I see. But you're only 13.

Ella Taylor:

Yeah. But like, you know that cooking show where all the 13-year-olds go on and cook? Like, I'm not on the cooking 13-year-old show.

John Taylor:

All right, we'll see what we can do about that.

Ella Taylor:

Yeah.

John Taylor:

Okay. All right, why don't you stop that one for a second? Great. That's just what every parent wants, right? You want your child to go to school, get a good education, and hopefully, land a career they'll be happy with. But, what if Ella's aspiration to be a chef turns out to be just like my aspiration to be a gas station attendant? What if automation, AI, machine learning, and robotics render the job of chef as obsolete as a leech collector, or a caddy butcher, or a gandy dancer, and yeah, those all happen to be jobs that disappeared long ago. And even more important, how do we train our kids for jobs that don't exist? Because according to an Institute for the Future forecast, up to 85% of the jobs that will be available in 2040 haven't been created yet, and Michael Lotito, Co-Founder of the Emma Coalition and Co-Chair of Littler's Workplace Policy Institute, believes that this is a real problem, especially when it comes to that all-important first job.

Michael Lotito:

And that first job is important, because the first job teaches you that you got to get up in the morning, and you got to take a shower, and brush your teeth, and get there on time. It teaches you that you've got to be part of a team.

John Taylor:

Like me, Michael is basically a concerned father, well, grandfather to be precise, which is why he founded the Emma Coalition.

Michael Lotito:

Emma is named after my oldest granddaughter, and it is designed to create interest in, I think, one of the most significant issues of our time, which is the transformation of the American workforce, and by trying to identify this issue with a little girl, as a symbol for all of the children of the world, I thought that people might get more engaged, because there are so many studies about these issues, that they can be abstract, and what we're trying to do is to try to talk about it in terms of real consequences.

John Taylor:

And the biggest consequence of all, according to Michael, is what he calls TIDE, the technologically induced displacement of employment. Let's take a look at an example.

Speaker 1:

More than a generation away, and yet dreams travel faster than light. And even now, scientists and planners are shaping the lives of our children who will live in the 21st century.

John Taylor:

So, let's say it's the year 2040, and my daughter is working as a sous chef at Chez Noretorcher in New York, and the executive chef walks in with this robot, and she says, "Sorry, Ella, but this is the Chef-o-Matic 5000, and it's taking your job." Ella has-

John Taylor:

Chef-O-Matic 5,000 and it's taking your job. Ella has now been displaced by technology, and worst of all, she has spent her entire adult life training for and working as a chef. So now that she's displaced, what does she do?

Michael Lotito:

We're going to constantly be going through this mammoth problem, and it's exacerbated by the fact that our birth rate is very down, that our immigration system is totally, completely broken. So we don't have as many immigrants working as we once did. And this is creating historic problems with respect to the American workforce, and there is no national plan in order to address it.

John Taylor:

And that's the rub. There are some state level programs that deal with the fallout of tide, but nothing on a federal level.

Michael Lotito:

We're blessed that with recent legislation to be building semiconductor plants in different places in the country. But the question is, who's going to get those high performing jobs? Who's responsible for the training? Is it just the company's responsibility? Is it the state's responsibility? Is it a societal responsibility? These questions are not being discussed, let alone coming up with a solution.

John Taylor:

Of course, this isn't a new thing. Technology has pushed workers out of jobs since the industrial revolution, but the rate at which the tide is rising, so to speak, could potentially affect or displace tens of millions of Americans. However, it's not all robot apocalypse according to Michael.

Michael Lotito:

Displacement is not necessarily bad. Displacement can be great. The question is what do you do with the person who's being displaced? The whole point is to talk about this and what is Emma going to do? What is your Emma going to do? What are you going to do at 35 or 40?

John Taylor:

And one of the examples that Michael gave during our conversation is the transition going on right now from internal combustion cars to electric cars, which brings to mind your childhood dream of becoming a mechanic, Amy. In my last oil change, I got a software upgrade, it's a whole different ball wax. So what do we do with these mechanics as we make this transition from petroleum based cars to electric based cars? What do we do with these mechanics who are being displaced?

Amy Tobey:

I mean, in that topic, I don't think they'll be displaced at all. So there might just be for some trades like mechanics, especially because they're deep into adaptive work because this is the stuff that machines are terrible at, which is something has gone wrong, the onboard computer doesn't know what it is, and so we bring a human in to go and look at the thing and think about it and reason and make leaps of thought to come to an answer and solve the problem. But there will always be this role. It's just going to be, they'll be in continual kind of renewal.

John Taylor:

I'm going to ask you the question that Michael Lotito would ask you. Whose responsibility is it to train that mechanic from internal combustion engines to electric motors?

Amy Tobey:

I mean, the way it works today in a dealership is the dealership does this. They'll send their techs off for upgrade training on each one, the same kind of thing that pilots do. It's similar kind of program. I think it's going to look much like that, and we're still in this kind of mega corporation world that we live in today. It'll be those mega corporations that determine the advancement.

Grace Ewura-Esi:

I'm not on TikTok, but I'm on Instagram, so I see TikTok stuff where people are saying, stop being an influencer and become a plumber, or stop being a rapper on Instagram and become a carpenter. But this idea that these jobs are actually really great for the collective, it's really good for us. And there's a lot of pride to be had in those really necessary positions in our society.

John Taylor:

Well, absolutely.

Amy Tobey:

I like the idea that as automation takes its toll, depending on which way you look at it, automation will either free us or take its toll, if you're kind of see it as a bad thing. But let's say that we do achieve a state where a lot of labor is automated. These kind of adaptive jobs where it's really hard for machines to fill these roles, will I think likely rise in prominence again, because the machines won't be able to do it, but there won't be kind of manual labor jobs that are kind of repetitive anymore as automation takes over.

John Taylor:

Which really supports the idea that chefs will be around forever because it's not like you can fully automate a restaurant. Right?

Alex Kolchinski:

Hey, I'm Alex Kolchinski and I'm the CEO at Mezli. Mezli builds autonomous food service. We built a fully automated build-your-own style restaurant, and we launched it last year in San Francisco.

John Taylor:

So by fully automated you mean that there are no humans involved in the creation of the food from the beginning of the chain to the end?

Alex Kolchinski:

So the way it works is that we would get ingredients in just like any restaurant, and then our chef and our cooks would be turning the ingredients into something that was just about ready to serve, which would then be loaded up into our cartridge system, delivered refrigerated to the robotic restaurant. And then when customers ordered meals, the ingredients would get put into the bowls just like what would happen at a Chipotle or a Sweetgreen. And then the bowls would go through an oven system, things would get heated up, final cooking steps. And then more cold ingredients would get put on top things like garnishes and sauces. And then finally, the meals would be served through a smart locker system. So just like with a chain like for example, Chipotle, most of the actual cooking and prep is happening in central kitchens. We were doing the exact same thing, but the final service was happening through a fully automated robot restaurant.

John Taylor:

What motivated you to sort of remove the human component from that part of the chain?

Alex Kolchinski:

What we realized is that it's actually very expensive to build and run a restaurant even though the physical steps happening inside the restaurant are very simple, it just costs a lot to build a building. It's something like a million dollars to build a Chipotle, 2 million to build a McDonald's, and you end up paying people to do a lot of pretty repetitive, not very fun work. Lots of people want to cook, not that many people want to be scooping ingredients into a bowl all day long. And so we realized that we could do the same thing in the central kitchen that the chains all over the place are doing, which is to say the actual bulk of the prep. And then to build what's really a food service machine to be where customers are that want good quality food, and to do those final steps that are currently happening in restaurants, but in a totally automated way.

John Taylor:

Got it. And my understanding is that at the very top of this chain is a Michelin star chef.

Alex Kolchinski:

Exactly. So the whole menu was created by Chef Eric Minnich, who was previously at Madera and The Commissary, some pretty well-known restaurants in the Bay Area, and came on as our chef to develop the whole menu that our robot restaurant served. So it makes all kinds of sense for existing brands, existing chefs, to design menus or even use existing menus that are currently serving out of restaurants or food trucks and put it through an automated machine. So that customers can get the same food they like from existing offerings or from new menus created by people, and they can get it in more places and at better prices.

John Taylor:

That's an amazing application when you put it in that perspective of a food truck, especially that a chef who develops a successful food truck menu but wants to take it nationwide, but can't deploy a fleet of trucks, could deploy a fleet of automated restaurants.

Alex Kolchinski:

Exactly. And it's hard to scale a restaurant chain. It takes decades and crazy amounts of money and work, and it's even harder to scale food trucks. They're just not a very scalable model because they're so operationally hard. And so having hundreds of thousands of automated food service outlets means that it becomes much more scalable to come up with a menu or take an existing menu and deploy it to many, many places where people can enjoy it wherever they are.

John Taylor:

Interesting. Do you ever think about whether that menu would ever be developed by an AI?

Alex Kolchinski:

Whew. I'm actually from an AI background. And in theory you could involve AI into developing a menu. You can see right now with ChatGPT, you can ask ChatGPT for a recipe and it'll give you something. You probably for the foreseeable future though, are going to want the feedback of humans saying-

Alex Kolchinski:

... the future, though, are going to want the feedback of humans saying, "I like this, I don't like this." And there's also a lot of interaction with the physical world that has to happen, of course, with food because you're dealing with different shapes and sizes and even tastes of ingredients, and you really do need to adapt the way you're processing things, the way you're cooking things, to the actual ingredients you're getting. So if you want to have an AI that can come up with a great menu and oversee its execution, you're going to need to have some level of interaction or at least understanding of the physical world.

John Taylor:

I'm beginning to see a pattern here. If nothing else, we can pretty much guarantee that we will continue to automate as many simple, repetitive human processes as we possibly can. So if we're going to prepare our kids for a future dominated by robotics, AI, and automation, isn't the obvious solution that I should get my daughter into tech? If my kids want to be able to adapt to what appears the future is bringing, should STEM be the focus of their education?

Grace Ewura-Esi:

I think about this a lot because I tutor children, and I think that the best thing you can do, honestly, for anyone, but especially young people, is to teach them about what their own fear constructs are, and then to teach them about what their own expansion constructs are. Really supporting this idea that it's okay to be afraid of something you don't know, but don't let that fear turn into apprehension or prejudice or resistance. And I think if we can do that, it doesn't matter what the future jobs are because your child will become an adult who recognizes when they're afraid, but also recognizes when there's no actual present danger, and can move through that to the next phase of whatever human evolution may be.

Amy Tobey:

A thing I heard while Grace was talking and then I'm going to throw it back at you, John, real quick, which is, well, what you described is enabling children to undergo adaptive behavior. You're setting them up emotionally so when the moment comes that they don't know what to do, and especially a machine wouldn't know what to do, their mind is open to them, and so they can engage in adaptation, which is the thing that humans, I think, do better than anybody else on this planet. And so that's what I heard when you were talking is that's what we study in resilience engineering is adaptive capacity or adaptation in action. I wanted to throw it back to John because the way I think about this a lot and describe it to people is improvisation. So how did you learn to improvise? Wow.

John Taylor:

Wow. Great question. Because it really touches on what both of you are saying. First of all, my first musical exposure to improvisation was at a very young age. All right? I learned to play mandolin when I was 12. And believe it or not, there was this burgeoning bluegrass scene in Southern California in the late seventies, and my brother had learned to play banjo, and he literally is like, "You learned to play the mandolin. You got two weeks and then we're going to go to these jam sessions." I'm like, "Okay."

Amy Tobey:

There's what Grace was talking about. You were unafraid.

John Taylor:

Yeah.

Amy Tobey:

Okay.

John Taylor:

Exactly. Yeah, exactly. So you need to go out to the parking lot at Shakey's Pizza, and people are playing these traditional bluegrass songs, but it's like, and now it's your solo. And this one song lasts 15 minutes because there's eight people in a circle playing solo after solo after each chorus. And it was improvise or die, jam or die. That's what we called it. And eventually I got better and better and better, and, yeah, that was a 100% improvisational.

Amy Tobey:

So that's my answer of how we prepare kids for this future is improvisation, because once again, I think that's the thing we'll always do better than the machines.

John Taylor:

So this should give me hope. Right? There may be nothing more improvisational than being a chef. And on top of that, chefs have to be adaptive. They have to think fast and act fast and adapt to an ever-changing environment, which as Amy says, is the thing that humans do far better than machines. All right. Well, that said, we never thought a machine could drive a car. We never thought a machine could be that adaptive. Right? Okay. So this is why Amy introduced me to her friend Tim Banks. Tim has a very unique skill set, and therefore, a very special insight to this idea of adaptability and improvisation. Tim is an executive chef turned lead developer advocate at Dell Technologies, and as it turns out, he's so much more than either of those things. He can play every instrument in the wind ensemble. He's a veteran of the United States Marine Corps. He's a race car builder and driver, and also-

Tim Banks:

The five time consecutive and reigning Pan-American Brazilian jujitsu champion in my division.

John Taylor:

Which is pretty freaking cool actually. Now, you'd think these disparate skillsets wouldn't apply in the kitchen, but you'd be wrong.

Tim Banks:

The aspect of the military that was the most useful in the kitchen is teamwork, especially when you have disparate concerns. If I'm in a fire team, you've got the fire team leader who has one kind of weapon, you've got the machine gunner, you've got the assistant gunner, and then you've got a rifleman. So when you have to converge on a point, everyone has to be coordinated, and there is some conversations, but oftentimes there's not a lot of talking you can do. Gunfire is loud. But in the kitchen, you have people in various stations doing various things that have to execute those things at different times. So that level of coordination takes a lot of communication. Fortunately, you can talk a little more easily in the kitchen than you can outdoors with things blowing up around you. But the notion of teamwork is still there.

John Taylor:

So a good kitchen crew takes teamwork and communication, and as Tim goes on to explain, trust. Now, are those uniquely human attributes? No, they're not. Look at any manufacturing line consisting entirely of robots. They work as a team, each with their own specific task, and in such perfect coordination that they don't have to trust each other. Trust is an emotional component exclusive to humans that helps us alleviate suspicions that arise due to our survival instinct. Trust, in this context, is simply the point where things are most likely to break down. So why not simply use a robot chef?

Tim Banks:

If you want robotic consumption, you can get robotic production, but people who want an experience, you're not going to get that from a robot. We're not robots. And we have done ourselves a disservice by distancing our nutritional needs from the means by which it comes. You think of cultures who would hunt or gather, or cultivate their own food. They have a deep connection to the land, they have a deep connection to the food, and so you see places like farm to table and stuff like that became a thing because people are trying to get a connection back, get a certain understanding of where things are and where they came from and how they existed. That our cultures that came before us, they already knew. And I think that the farther we get away from that, we lose a lot of our humanity.

John Taylor:

I love that take because it goes hand in hand with this idea we've explored previously, that it takes mythology to make something last. So we may create new technology that more efficiently chops and slices and mixes, but how could technology ever replace that experience of watching that ballet that a chef performs when creating a dish?

Tim Banks:

The open kitchen and the kitchen bar is a thing that people love. We wouldn't go to the Benihana hibachi grills if that thing didn't have a certain appeal, which I think is funny because the kitchen does have a certain kind of cool appeal. Even if you don't know what's going on, it looks cool, right? Nobody want to watch nobody code. No one was like, "Ooh, let me sit and watch this software development team." That doesn't happen, right?

John Taylor:

Right.

Tim Banks:

We don't do anything that cool. People watch shows about building houses because it's kind of cool to do that. Nobody watched a show about people coding. PART 3 OF 4 ENDS [00:27:04]

Speaker 2:

... people coding.

John Taylor:

The interesting thing here is that, yeah, nobody watches shows about people coding, but people do watch shows where the actors have been replaced by computer generated images. And I think there's a parallel here, because one, nobody would've thought that kind of technology was even possible 40 years ago. And two, being an actor is cool, right? Watching actors on the stage is cool. So why would we replace actors with CGI? But we do. Look, admittedly, what I'm feeling here is a bit of guilt. It is my generation's miraculous technological achievements that are going to displace millions of Americans from their jobs. And now I have to face the music. I have to tell my daughter that the person is supposed to be the guardian of her dreams may be the one who betrayed them. How you doing, sweetheart?

Ella Taylor:

I'm doing good. How about you?

John Taylor:

I'm doing great. So I want to talk to you about something.

Ella Taylor:

Okay.

John Taylor:

I have this fear that even after everything we've talked about, I am worried that you will never get to be a chef because robots will do that job.

Ella Taylor:

I don't see how chefs wouldn't be involved when I'm older. It's not like something could be totally erased like that and robots can't do everything.

John Taylor:

You don't think that a robot could cook a meal?

Ella Taylor:

No, I think a robot could cook a meal, but I think a true chef can create something new and robots can only create what they're told to.

John Taylor:

So you're not worried about this?

Ella Taylor:

Not really, no.

John Taylor:

Well, that did not turn out to be the major generational reckoning I thought it would be. Apparently Ella's pretty confident that there will always be chefs. And who am I to say no?

Amy Tobey:

I think there will definitely be chefs. I think there will be even more of them because my thought is that one of the things we've seen in the last 20 years or so... I just moved back to a place I left for about 15 years, and the food available here has improved immensely. We have all these kind of foodie places you can go now. That wasn't a thing 20 years ago to my recollection. I think that's going to continue as we go down the road of automation and it frees us from the toil of the field. It frees us from the toil of the factory. The robots are really good at that stuff, and that will free people to do trades like chef, where they get even more creative and they have more resources available to them. So that's my answer is I think it's going to be the job.

Grace Ewura-Esi:

I support Amy's statement here. I think as technology moves forward, there's going to just be a simplification that happens in some of the other parts of our life and hopefully a gratitude that's attached to that. But I think that there is a bit of a movement to slow down a little bit. And I think that we're cherishing things because I live in a place where sometimes I'm surprised by what culinary loveliness exists where I am. And I think there's a lot of that happening all over the world where I think food is going to continue to be a really delicious part of the human experience.

John Taylor:

And here's the thing, I'm sold now. Okay? I agree 100% that a career as a chef will always be available for my daughter, and that's great and all, but I'm still freaked out. And that could be because I'm a parent and parents are wired to freak out. But I think it's actually something else. It's fear of change and it's a fear that technology is just increasing the pace of change to the point where we can't control it anymore.

Amy Tobey:

I absolutely think technology plays a major role in the increase in pace of change. I feel like the pace is changing and the way technology contributes is we can't censor the way we could when you could control a physical object. You could make sure your kids never saw a newspaper or a book or certain books, but now that a lot of these kids have cell phones or their friends have cell phones, forget about it. There's folks trying to do this. They're trying to censor things, but these kids are ahead of all of us and I work in tech. That's my whole job. And I know I can't stop my kid from getting to things that he wants to get to, so I don't really do it. As a result, he's a very well informed 13 year old.

John Taylor:

A strange and fascinating thing happened earlier this year. Hundreds of notable businessmen, scientists, and technologists signed an open letter asking Ai Labs to pause building AI more powerful than GPT4. You want to know whose signature is not on that document? My daughter's. In fact, you'd probably be hard pressed to find any signatory under the age of 24 because the kids understand. The kids aren't afraid. The kids get the control that we lose. In one of our conversations, Ella said something to me that really hit home.

Ella Taylor:

It's just kind of stupid that adults give cell phones to kids and then get all angry when we spend too much time on our phones.

John Taylor:

Now, you can debate the logic of this all you want, but the point is, if you're over about the age of 30, it doesn't really matter what you think. My generation will eventually pass the baton to the next generation, and that baton is the tech that we created. And the kids will look at that tech and then decide if it suits their priorities, which by the way, are probably fixing the things that we broke. And if it doesn't suit their priorities, they'll simply cast it aside and create something new, something better. So yeah, I think Ella's got this. I say the kids are all right.

Grace Ewura-Esi:

Traceroute is a podcast from Equinix and Stories Bureau. This episode was produced by John Taylor with help from Tim Ballad and production assistance from Kat Bugseek. It was edited by Joshua Ramsey and mixed by Jeremy Tuttle with additional editing and sound design by Mathr de Leon. Our theme song was composed by Ty Gibbons. If you want to check us out, you can find us on Twitter @origins_dev. That's D-E-V. And type origins.dev into your browser for even more stories about the human layer of the stack. If you enjoyed this story, please share it wherever you hang out online and in person and consider leaving a five star rating on Apple and Spotify because it really helps other people find the show. Traceroute will be back in two weeks. Until then, I'm Grace Ewura-Esi. Thanks for listening.